Woodworking blog Woodworking Magazine - Festool Domino: The Six-month Report

Posted 8/27/2007 in All Weblog Posts | Joinery

This weekend we gave away our antique Arts & Crafts sideboard to some friends who have just bought a house and I installed the new Gustav Stickley 802 sideboard I’d built with the help of Harvey Ellis’s pen and German technology.

Like every other woodworking magazine, we’ve been heavily testing the Festool Domino since it arrived in early December. Senior Editor Glen Huey has built a number of traditional American projects using it. Senior Editor Robert Lang has been building a massive credenza that will go behind his workbench (it’s a long story, ask him). And Managing Editor Megan Fitzpatrick has even had her turn with the machine and is in the middle of building a medicine cabinet and mirror with the Domino.

And for my part, I’ve fiddled around with the thing quite a bit. I built a few picture frames for some artwork that has been languishing around the house. And I’ve built a couple cabinet doors. But my first real test of the machine was this summer as I built a Stickley 802 sideboard between bouts of traveling and teaching.

This was my first complex piece of casework with the Domino, and I was eager to get familiar with the machine but also cautious that I’d muck up a lot of good cherry in the name of trying out the new thing.

I’ll spare you any suspense: The Domino works as advertised. And considering its immense promise, that is an impressive feat. In competent hands, the Domino is capable of cutting joints with jaw-dropping speed and impressive strength. But note the qualifier: “In competent hands….” The Domino is only as smart as its user.

As I put the sideboard together, I was curious how much faster it would be to use this machine compared to cutting traditional mortise-and-tenon joints. Glen Huey estimates that the Domino is capable of trimming about 25 percent off the shop time of a typical casework project. As I put the base of the sideboard together, I thought Glen was dead-on right. The Domino moved effortlessly through the project. It cut offset joints with immense precision and little math. It made joints that were tighter than any biscuit joints. And because of the inherent holding ability of the ribbed beech Dominos, I had to use few clamps to get everything together.

With the case assembled, I braced the sideboard against my bench and used a jointer plane to remove a few shavings from the rear apron to get it flush to the legs.

Then the project went limp, like my youngest sister’s arm when she broke it while playing in our driveway. The Domino joints in the front apron had failed. But why?

I’d forgotten a cardinal rule of tenon design: A tenon should be two-thirds the width of the stock it emerges from. Because the Dominos were so tight and so dead-on, I’d used two of them in each joint in the front rail. I should have used three.

So I pulled apart the front of the carcase and cut additional joints. (Note: Try cutting mortises on a half-assembled carcase with a hollow-chisel mortiser. The portability of the Domino is one of its oft-overlooked wonders.) Then it was glue, clamps and an impatient and fitful evening. The next day I picked up at the same place I’d gone wrong. This time the Dominos held, which was absolutely no surprise at all.

This week I’m gearing up for some more furniture projects. My youngest daughter needs some bookshelves, and the friends with the new (read: empty) house need some shelves as well. And our living room has never had a decent coffee table. Ah, and the campaign chest I’ve been doodling is starting to tug at me.

And the Domino figures prominently in many of those plans.

— Christopher Schwarz

Comments [29]

8/28/2007 7:06:23 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Chris,

Looks great! Please show us some more pictures. I was
surprised to see the drawer divider the whole width of the
piece. Assume the drawers are dovetailed. Very nice.

Steve

Steve Spear |passpearAT NOSPAMverizon dot net

8/28/2007 7:12:33 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

I'll snap some more photos in a few days and discuss a few more details of construction. Yes, the drawers are dovetailed. And they are made using drawer slips. This is the first project I've made using slips. I like them.

As to the divider, its grain run sympathetically to that of the sides and top, so it moves with the piece. (I can't say the same about the cross-grain in that bottom rail. I'll be curious to see what that does over time.

Chris

Christopher Schwarz |chris dot schwarzAT NOSPAMfwpubs dot com

8/28/2007 7:26:17 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Chris,
With the price of the Domino I can't imagine many people being able to afford it. As with all the Festools the price is outrageous.
David

David Comerford |comerfordAT NOSPAMrjsonline dot net

8/28/2007 7:30:54 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

I don't think the Domino is all that expensive. It's about the price of a cheap laptop and will be useful for many years longer.

The price of quality tools (in any profession) can be shocking. Just ask the people who buy SnapOn for their cars. But once you use it and rely on it, the price is fair. Same with Festool.

Chris

Christopher Schwarz |chris dot schwarzAT NOSPAMfwpubs dot com

8/28/2007 9:04:08 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Chris,

Your justification of the Domino's price is fine but
for one detail: as you are well aware there happen to be about 10 different
ways to cut M&T joints. Some of them would likely not
require a typical home woodworker to spend any
additional money at all. I am thinking in particular
using a router and simple jig, drill press, or even(gasp!)
using hand tools.

Even if you bought a dedicated mortiser you'd still have
a ton of cash left over versus the Domino.

I don't know, there's also something philosophically
bothering me about this tool. Maybe it is making
the old workhorse M&T joint TOO easy to execute. That
sounds weird, but it is bothering me.

Chris

Chris C |cioloriAT NOSPAMvoicenet dot com

8/28/2007 9:42:59 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Personally, I chop mortises almost entirely by hand (though I will drill a single hole for chip clearance a lot of the time, but I do it with a brace, so it's not really cheating ;) ), but I do this because it's important to me to develop the skills this requires. For this reason, and because as a weekend hobbiest I don't have too much income devoted to the shop right now, I don't see myself buying a domino ant time in the near future.

However, this doesn't mean I don't understand it's value for anyone who wants to do M&T's faster, easier, and (therefore) cheaper if your time is worth anything... What I seem to see is a lot of people bashing the tool, none of whom (as far as I can tell) have used it for any appreciable amount of time. The people who are really putting it through its paces all seem to be pretty universal in accolades for it.

I understand wanting to remain philosophically opposed to an $800 tool for M&T work, but that certainly doesn't make it overpriced for a LOT of woodworkers. In fact, as Mr. Schwarz seems to be one of the greatest proponents for handwork as not only worthwhile, but also fast and precise, I think his endorsement of the domino says a lot more than others' opinions of a device they are haven't used.

In perspective: a $40 pair of used Disston hand saws will do 90% of the work most of us would do on a $1500 table saw too, at least as well in capable hands... but who balks at that price? And you don't even need a blade brake for handsaws...

Thanks for the entry Chris.

Raney

8/28/2007 9:47:42 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Well, as to the Festool, I'm glad I'm not in a hurry.

Nice piece of furniture, Chris!

William Claspy

8/28/2007 10:56:44 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Chris,

That is a great looking piece of Furniture. Did you pull that from Robert Lang's book?

Pat Rock |patAT NOSPAMpatrickrock dot com

8/28/2007 1:03:18 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Chris C: I sympathize with your comments about price. This is an expensive machine. That doesn't mean the price is unreasonable. From what I've read, the Domino seems a good investment for a professional and an expensive "nice ot have" proposition for an amature.

Karl

8/28/2007 2:32:27 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

The 25% time savings is a figure that a pro or semi-pro would use to discern whether or not to purchase and peruse any high-grade tool be it, Festool, Fein, Felder, Lamello et al.

In adopting any method or machine that does the job as designed and shaves seconds off of a repetitive process and translates that savings into getting home in time for dinner, well, that's a no-brainer. Heck, I think I can use that.

Honey, would you look at this...

J.C. Collier |jceesAT NOSPAMyahoo dot com

8/28/2007 3:09:47 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

I appreciate the above comments. To me there is a
"Rolex watch" argument in here someplace. There is no
doubt that a Rolex watch is superbly made and keeps
beautiful time. And I appreciate the attention to detail
that goes into building one(as I am sure most
woodworkers do).

However, for $10K+, how much better can it be than say
a good quality off-the-shelf watch? And how accurate a
time do you really need?

Of course, I doubt people are buying Festool products
for the status of them(right?); the quality of them
translates into something useful to the user. But how
useful? In a small production shop, OK, I can see that.
For a hobbyist? Hmm.

What I DON'T want to see is articles in Popular
Woodworking that say things like: "We used the Festool
domino to make all of our mortise and tenon joints so
we won't discuss too many details of how we made the
joints. Do it the other way if you don't have a Domino."
One such article already exists if I remember
correctly.

Maybe we need a Festool domino showdown. Like the old story
of John Henry the steel driving man. Domino vs. the router
and jig. Domino vs. the dedicated mortiser. Domino vs
Godzilla.

Chris, I say you spend $250 for the dedicated mortiser,
then you'd have $500+ to buy a whole lot of that good beer
you like so much. How can you argue with that! :->

Chris

Chris C |cioloriAT NOSPAMvoicenet dot com

8/28/2007 4:41:58 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

I'll give my perspective on the domino.

Right now I do 90% of my M&T by hand even though I have a dedicated hollow chisel mortiser and tennon jig and I also have a router jig to do loose tennon joinery. Most of the time for 1 or 2 M&T joints, doing them by hand is just much faster than setting up tooling.

I do hand cut M&T with my $140 Adria tennon saw, my $60 Ray Isles and $150 AI chisels, my $150 Veritas shoulder plane and my $150 LN skew block plane. Yes you can do them witch cheaper and less substantial tools, but these are among the best tools for the job. By the way, this is $650 worth of tools and would be much more expensive if we start looking at an all Lie-Nielsen set up. Let go ahead and think about sharpening costs as well. You will also need at the minimum a set of sharpening stones, so lets go with the basic set from Lee Valley for about $50 and a nice honing guide for $50. Now with all costs in place to get going we are paying $750 for a upper end Hand tool setup. More if we start looking at high end waterstones or a Tormek/Jet.

So if we do the comparison with high end hand tools and a high end domino machine, we get $750 for a hand tool setup and $940 for the domino setup.

What the domino brings to the table is speed in low production. For me I see the value in this as a hobbyist and thus have purchased one and got rid of my hollow chisel mortiser. Yes festool is wicked expensive and a bit overpriced BUT it is extremely well engineered. Just like how I appreciate the quality of my upper end handtools instead of wasting my weekend scouring fleas and fixing up old handtools.

Some people love the trill of seeking and rehabbing old tools, however, I do not. I like to build things and both my nice handtools and hopefully my new domino will help me achieve this more quickly with the little free time I have.

Also keep in perspective that all the domino does is make mortises for floating tennons. You can do the exact same thing with a nice router jig and scrap wood for the tennons for a fraction of the cost and not have to change any of the measurements on the drawings. With a little ingenuity you can make a jig just as fast as the domino and you can even buy router bits that correspond to mortises that will fit dominoes, if you don't feel like making the tennons.

Maybe PW will publish a nice article on making a floating tennon router jig in the light of the domino.

Brad |bradley dot olsonAT NOSPAMgmail dot com

8/28/2007 5:26:52 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

"Because the Dominos were so tight and so dead-on, I’d used two of them in each joint in the front rail. I should have used three."

A picture/drawing would speak a 1000 words here - I can't picture situation. If the joint failed with two, then adding one more seems you might still be risking failure?

dburnard

8/29/2007 12:02:15 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Here are my 2 cents,

Domino at the present time is like no other tool. Same as what happened with Lamello when they came up with the biscuit joiner. There is no other tool dedicated to make floating tenon joints as fast as Domino. There are hollow chisel mortisers but they are for different purposes.
When Lamello came up with the biscuit idea there was no other tool for making (using) biscuits joints. Then jigs for router arrived and eventually some other tool makers where able to approach to the principle (not sure in which order arrived but they did). In few years we pass from having Lamello or nothing, to selecting which biscuit joiner (Makita, Dewalt, PC, etc.) we would use instead of the real deal (AKA Lamello).
Have no doubt that in the big tool maker companies CEOs are asking designer leaders “How come we never thought about transforming a biscuit joiner into a brownie joiner” -- Yes, to me, Domino joiner is nothing more than a 3D biscuit joiner, that happens to be known as floating tenon -- “Can we make our own Domino tool?” “How much time should we wait to look like innovators and not as copycats?” and so on.
Like having the first HD TV or the first PS3 in the block you have to pay a prime. If you wait long enough you might get a second best (but still good enough) or even the same product at lower price.
In the mean time rest assure that Domino is the newest tool but not the ultimate tool. When this saw dust settles you will be able to see that Domino doesn’t make you a better woodworker, only faster. You will still have to know why tenon and some of the tenon mechanics to avoid joint failures (right Chris?). Soon enough we will be saying as we do with biscuits “…Yeah you did it because the biscuits (dominoes) helps you…” as a diminishing comment. Finally, you’ll be able to see that it has its limitations, such as you wont be able to peg this tenons (unless you peg both ends) and not (at least, I don’t think) you wont be able to use this dominoes in the Roubo bench that you have procrastinated for so long.
But boy it would be nice to have a Domino in my tool arsenal!

Regards,

P. Massabié

P. M. |pmassabieAT NOSPAMsympatico dot ca

8/29/2007 12:08:43 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

I like brad's comparison to the cost of quality hand tools. I'd like to add one point: All those handtools for cutting mortise and tenons will do OTHER joints as well. You aren't spending $750 on mortise and tenon tools, you're spending it on general woodworking tools.

The Domino does one thing very well (as all specialized tools should), but you still need all those other tools (or power equivalents) to get to a point where the Domino can do it's thing. You still need accurate dimensioning, surface prep, decorative features. All those hand tools you listed (and a couple more) will get you to that point. Plus, they'll cut other joinery as well without further investment.

I just think price comparisons like these should mention the utility of the alternatives. It's not that the Domino is good or bad at what it does, it's that for hobbyists thats's a whole heck of a lot of money for a single-purpose tool. I'm sure it's a great tool. I don't have to use it to know that it does one thing. It does mortises.

Even if it did that one thing so incredibly well and so incredibly fast, it's still a single-tasker. It should be. It's the arguments people have to justify the (nearly $1000) cost to someone who putzes around the shop on weekends that I take exception to. It really starts to feel evangelical after awhile, to me.

I think that it's a great tool for it's purpose. I just don't like seeing it compared to similarly priced tools that perform several times as many functions. Call it what it is: A quality single-task tool with a price tag that many (most?) hobbiests would consider too high. It's okay to call it that - not everyone has to buy one.

Festool's primary market is pro shops in europe, if I'm not mistaken. They're not surviving on the hobbiest market. They'll gladly take your money if you thrust it at them, of course. But they're really a level up from most of us who see woodworking as enjoyment and not income.

The debate rages on!! :)

Jason Beam |beamer34AT NOSPAMhotmail dot com

8/29/2007 3:25:25 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

As a hobbyist woodworker, I have to agree with Chris C's comment. Though I can see a real benefit to the pro in using the Domino too, as an amateur I don't build furniture to HAVE the furniture, but to BUILD the furniture. This is one of the reasons I enjoy Popular Woodworking so much - it takes a more creative approach to projects than "here is the measured drawing and instructions" and gets into aspects of design and the purpose of joinery and other technique.

Howwever, the recent article on building a Shaker Clock frustrated me a bit because it at times came across as an advertisement for the Domino. I understand that the Domino was used for the project, but I would have much rather read that loose tenons of a specific size were used and that the Domino was used to accomplish them instead of just saying the Domino made the joinery easy to do.

Thanks,
Richard

Richard Green |rtgreen8972AT NOSPAMmsn dot com

8/29/2007 3:32:31 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

I wonder if this same type of debate arose when they first introduced the multi-router. It does more than loose tenons but It is still pretty "single use" and at nearly four times the price.

Jeff |WoodmanjeffAT NOSPAMno_SPAMyahoo dot com

8/29/2007 3:37:07 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Price is way to high..............only the editors and writers will praise this tool........remember where the butter for their bread comes from!!!

Why spend more for a dedicated T & M tool than a good decent table saw or for 3 or 4 decent other wood working tools..........The comment about Snap On tools is way out of line also.....we are hobby people, not full timers........Craftsman tools work just a well and are easier to replace if damaged.

Don |jdoncochraneAT NOSPAMaol dot com

8/29/2007 3:48:22 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

appears to be an excellent concept..however cost benefit/ratio is very very questionable...

Tom |TLCWoodcraftAT NOSPAMrochester dot rr dot com

8/29/2007 9:29:41 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Some of the comments above parallel statements made against a machine that could do fast calculations when a human could do them with a pencil and paper. . . just slower.

Tom |ttauerAT NOSPAMcoe dot edu

8/29/2007 11:00:24 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

I think that Brad, Richard, Jason et al. have hit the nail on the head. If you have a production shop it makes sense. Otherwise, it's too much money for a single use tool.

John W Barrett |johnbarrett1507AT NOSPAMcomcast dot net

8/30/2007 8:55:51 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Chris,
Bull-loney. If you had to pay for the Domino out of your pocket, WOULD YOU BUY ONE??? I very much doubt it. You have written many times about your budget. How could you justify paying $700 for a tool that can't cost more than a $100 to produce. Good quality tools are worth the added expense up to a point. The point being when a ridiculous price is attached. It's nothing more than a new fad. Granted, I have no doubt it works. But, the old saying applies, a fool and his money are soon parted.

David Comerford |comerfordAT NOSPAMrjsonline dot net

9/5/2007 3:20:43 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

I don't see why all this emotion is spent on this. I think it's a good tool. If my budget could wrap it up, I might. I'm looking at other tools right now. I don't see myself getting one real soon. That doesn't mean I am angry at those who do! Granted it is expensive. It is less than some of those planes Chris tried. I personally think it is a great thing that someone found a way to improve a process with a product and built it for people to buy. I think it is great that they worked hard to produce a tool that is high in quality. I wish them well in this endeavor. Maybe it will inspire them to do it again and maybe next time, the tool will be one for me. I want there to be a plethora of tools to choose from so we can all find ones we can use, enjoy, and admire. Yippee! There's another tool on the market!

Phil

Phil |dellrmAT NOSPAMnetzero dot com

10/12/2007 9:16:43 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Are you sure the problem was two (instead of three) tennons? It really sounds more like an inadequate glue-up, maybe coating just the mortise holes and not the domino tennons, or vice-versa (which would allow all the glue to be scrapped off the edge of the joints during assembly).

If there was only two tennons, which were of inadequate cross section to hold the pieces together, then applying too much pressure to a properly glued up joint would have splintered the wood and the tennons apart, requiring much more rework (including recutting all of the mortise joints already glued up, probably scrapping the offending piece of wood).

Some more discussion and analysis of the failure would be a great service to the readers to help us avoid similar pitfalls, instead of simply passing it off as "whops, only two tennons). This would make the article very useful, rather then just a glib report that the domino works as advertised.

tim |tmarks1AT NOSPAMexcite dot com

10/12/2007 11:07:00 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

I don't understand how a joint could so completely fail that it could be taken apart to add the third biscuit. I wonder if the author stretched reality a bit to make the point that you can't skimp on the number of biscuits used.

Bill_de |bill_deAT NOSPAMcomcast dot net

10/12/2007 12:04:07 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Chris, I also would like a bit more info. Was this a dry fit that you were planing or was the joint fully glued and cured? It seems that the dominos are useful as alignment tools and adding some strength to the joint, but glue across all the mating surfaces is where the real strength should come from. Since my understanding is that modern glues (properly applied) are usually stronger than the wood they adhere to I'm puzzled how this joint could fail and fail in such a way that you could easily rebuild it by just adding another domino.

Johnbro |johnbro27AT NOSPAMgmail dot com

10/13/2007 12:29:15 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

What is above is what happened. If you don't believe it, then don't believe it. Fine by me.

Is it glib? Not to me. I think it's a serious discussion of the effective gluing surface area of a joint.

Chris

Christopher Schwarz |chris dot schwarzAT NOSPAMfwpubs dot com

10/13/2007 12:33:10 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

The joints were glued. Not dry. The glue cured for more than 24 hours. The failure was wood failure. Not glue failure. I took it apart and re-glued everything. It's easy to add a Domino to a joint like that.

Chris

Christopher Schwarz |chris dot schwarzAT NOSPAMfwpubs dot com

2/14/2008 10:25:42 AM (Eastern Standard Time, UTC-05:00)

I also made this table at the same time as you, Chris, but I used cherry and did most of the mortise & tenon joints the old fashioned way, but I decided to cheat on the arched stretcher and use my P&C biscuit joiner on that joint. I did not understand that it was structural. Like you, I experienced a complete failure of this joint, however, I had glued up with hide glue, and so I solved the problem by retro-fitting an interior frame of poplar which would then also function as drawer sliders. When I was ready to install the frame I steamed my biscuit joints and slide them back together, then glued and screwed the frame to the legs and center divider. Have to say, I like the fact that you stuck with the classic Harvey Ellis design with the backsplash. My sister wanted it to be stained red, sans backsplash and with modern knobs. This was a great project!

Stephen Loughin |sloughinAT NOSPAMwamsystems dot com

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