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Posted 3/25/2008 in All Weblog Posts | Joinery | Saws

I'm always looking for little tricks to improve dovetailing, especially the part I dislike: transferring the tails' locations to the pin board.

Sawmaker Mike Wenzloff stumbled across this interesting short entry in William Fairham’s book “Woodwork Joints, How they are Set Out, How Made and Where Used” (available for free download here at the most awesome Project Gutenberg). After describing how some woodworkers use a knife or a saw to transfer the marks, Fairham writes:

“Other workers prefer a pounce-bag instead of a saw. A pounce-bag consists of a piece of fairly open woven muslin filled with a mixture of French chalk and finely-powdered whiting; the muslin is tied up with a piece of thin twine like the mouth of a flour sack. All that is necessary is to place the timber in position and bang the bag on the top of the saw-cuts, when sufficient powder will pass through the bag and down the saw kerf to mark the exact positions of the lines.”

So it was off to the store to buy some pantyhose.

But first, we had to find whiting and French chalk. The French chalk was fairly easy – it's essentially powered talc. You can find it at the fabric stores where it is used for marking cloth. Or you can go to the pharmacy and buy baby powder, which is talc and fragrance (essence du hinder l'enfant).

Whiting was harder for us to find. It is calcium carbonate (ground chalk) and is used in preparing artist paints these days. After a couple of clueless looks and pointless phone calls, Managing Editor Megan Fitzpatrick found some at an artist supply store.

And then the muslin. Surprisingly, we're a yard short on muslin in the workshop right now. So Megan suggested I buy pantyhose for the bag. I balked a bit. So she picked out a nice pair of L'eggs Everyday knee-highs (color: nude with a sheer toe), paid the man and we were off to the races.

Now before I ruined a nice new pair of knee-highs, I decided to try some other fabrics. First up: some old surgical rags that former Senior Editor David Thiel brought into the shop about 10 years ago. It actually was too coarse and the powder went flying.

Then I tried an athletic sock (I use them to transport my block planes to shows and classes). Bingo. It deposited a fine dusting of powder when I whacked the sock on the dovetails.

As I was experimenting with the different whacking forces and whacking vectors, I cleaned off the pin board after each whack with a little water and a rag. And that water seemed to make the powder even easier to see.

Then I tried marking some knife lines and just whacking those (seeing knife lines in walnut is really hard for me). That worked, too. The resulting pins were easy to see and to saw. I'm going to have to experiment with the technique some more, but it's another thing to tuck into your bag of tricks (or your nude, sheer-toe knee-highs).

— Christopher Schwarz


3/25/2008 4:36:51 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Chris,

I dauff my hat to you, being man enough to use panty hose; I was here thinking you were getting cold feet ('hose do work to help fight that); but you're willing to give it a try. To Megan, good on your for taking Chris to a chemist's and showing us men up.

That all said, interesting trick that I will have to try as I get into dovetails (I have a chest of drawers that will have a large number of exposed dovetails in the drawers.

Keep the great posts coming, and this magazine (and the blog) going.
3/25/2008 8:02:23 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
The Wives Against Schwarz are going to be irate after the panty raids begin.
3/25/2008 8:21:37 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
So, did you actually use the panty hose? Unless I'm reading wrong, you stopped with the more manly athletic sock.
Jason
3/25/2008 8:54:15 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

Jason,

The knee-highs are still on my desk. And now the nightly cleaning crew is *definitely* going to wonder about me.

Chris
3/25/2008 10:47:20 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
I can see it now, apprentices in the shop hoovering about offering to pounce that joint for you like wait people offering pepper or extra cheese on your meal.

But my hat is off to you for sharing this forehead slapping idea with the rest of us panty hose averters. Don't tell Skiver or he will have a field day with this - at least he can't cut himself with a sock.
3/25/2008 11:17:21 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Would the powdered chalk used in a chalkline work?
3/25/2008 11:25:57 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
My question is...how accurately were you able to saw the pins using this method? Are you a dovetail fits off the saw guy, or do you pare like the rest of us?
3/25/2008 11:37:59 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Sweet mother of mayhem.
James Watriss
3/26/2008 6:41:40 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

David,

I don't know. If you have any, give it a try and let us know.

Chris
3/26/2008 9:03:29 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
This technique is not for me. If I was going around
whacking things with powder filled socks, my shop would look
like a scene from the end of the movie Scarface.

Chris
3/26/2008 9:43:20 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Has Adam heard about this one yet? Because I'm seeing wardrobe vs woodworking world's colliding in his shop:

"An 18th century MacGuyver Marking system- I think I'm in love!
But they're my best Knee-Highs.[sob]
Must...resist...temptation."
Anon
3/26/2008 10:08:44 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
OK, Chris, I see one issue with this technique that I can't figure out. When I cut the pins on dovetails, it's typical for sawdust to build up on the end-grain and obscure the marked lines. Naturally, I just blow it off and start on the next cut. With this technique, how do you prevent the sawdust from obscuring the pounced cut-lines (I'm assuming you can't just lean down and blow it off, as that would erase the whiting/talc shadow lines).

David in Raleigh NC
3/26/2008 10:11:55 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)

David,

It wasn't a problem when I tried it. I just put my saw up against the powdered line (perhaps this powder is also good for wigs....) and made the first slice.

I don't need to blow on my lines when cutting pins. I just start at the right point and then try to remain vertical.

For the huffing and puffing crowd, it might make it harder. The stuff does stay fairly well put.

------------
Christopher Schwarz
3/26/2008 10:30:29 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
You can also use climbers chalk (Magnesium Carbonate) which comes in block form (or ground if you like).

If you double up the panty hose you can get some good control on the amount of chalk you are banging out of the bag. Also, Climbers Chalk is available at most outdoor stores like REI, and Jesse Browns, and will cost about $2.

Incidentally, I learned about this when I was a climber (10-11 years ago). The panty hsoe thing is a good trick, just make sure you double layer it. Dry erase bags would probably work too, but would be much more expensive.

Do a search online for climbers chalk, and you will find 8 packs and singles for cheap.

3/26/2008 4:22:17 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Hey Chris,

I've used a pounce (pronounced pöns, I believe)bag before, but never for dovetails.

My usual use for one is to transfer curved patterns from paper to full size templates. The technique is to lay the paper plan onto the template stock, and trace over the line with a pounce wheel. A pounce wheel is a spiked wheel on the end of a stylus. It sort of resembles a Texas cowboy's spur, in miniature. Anyway, the pounce bag is bounced on the row of tiny holes, and a clear dotted line shows up on the template stock, ready to bandsaw to shape.

Tom
3/26/2008 11:02:57 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
David,

I'm afraid, colored chalkline chalk staining might be impossible to remove.
3/27/2008 12:03:12 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
You should be able to find whiting in a well stocked paint store or glass shop. It is used most commonly in glazing window sash. If they don't have it, they can probably order it. Don't waste your time in a big box store though. It's probably a lot cheaper than buying from an art supply store also.
3/27/2008 6:16:28 AM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Regarding availability of whiting - another source would be an extreme sports shop - rock climbers use it on their hands for better grip on the rock face. You may also have seen weightlifters using it. Failing that you can buy it for use as a laxative in most chemists (at least you can in the UK) - that's what I used to do when I couldn't find climbers chalk.
3/27/2008 3:19:30 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Make sure you use a corn starch baby powder instead of talc, or just corn starch. Talc is bad for the lungs.
3/27/2008 5:14:33 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
"My first pair...." Now that's something not many guys could say (with a straight face, that is).
As always, enjoy your humor and your style.
Jim K
3/28/2008 12:56:28 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Thanks for the trick, Chris.

This looks very cool. A trick that might improve both accuracy and speed is an interesting one indeed. And using the word "nude" a couple times has got to be good for the hit count! ;-)

One question: How does this work if one cuts the pins first and then marks the lines for tails with pounce? Does the pounce hold well enough on long grain? Will it get placed well enough with the lesser access to the tail board while holding the pin board vertically over it?

Looks like I'll have an unmatched athletic sock after this weekend.
3/28/2008 6:28:10 PM (Eastern Daylight Time, UTC-04:00)
Ron,

I am going to turn this into a multi-capable tool.

I'll see if I can fill it with one of those new Mega-Clotting styptic powders. So that in addition to marking dovetails...I can also use it as a big clot bag for my cuts.

My real dilemma is that I was officially taught to cut pins first. Finally, a reason to go back to tails first where I can gang cut the tails.

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